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B2 Power Supply

Got problems with your B2 or B3? Share and get helped!
johannes
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Joined: 31 Dec 2006, 07:12
Location: Sweden
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Re: B2 Power Supply

Post by johannes »

The knots are ferrite beads surrounding the cable, used to suppress emitted radiation. In the case they are placed near the device they are suppressing radiation from the device, when placed near the power supply it's for suppressing radiation from the PSU.
CE-marking specifies maximum levels of radiation, both on the cable and radiated to free air, to minimize risk that a device interferes with other devices. And when HF radiation leaks out to a cable the cable effectively becomes an antenna. So, in short, these ugly knots are from the beginning expensive and ugly quick-fixes to poorly designed PCB's, to avoid having to re-do the PCB when you are in a hurry to start selling products and quickly need that CE-marking done. So why are those on Excito products then, you would ask? That does not make sense? :)

Now after many years of the industry struggling with HF emissions (it gets worse as clock frequencies on boards go up), these beads have become more or less a standard in the industry. It's unusual when you buy standard PSU's (as we do) to get them without beads. (When I look around my desk, it's (as expected) only Apple who cares much enough to make sure they don't need beads, none of my apple products have them, but everything else). The B3 actually passed the emission tests with really good results so we wouldn't have needed them at all, thanks to the B3 all-aluminum casing.

The fact that some of our (standard) PSU's have beads near the PSU and other near the device is just a coincidence, the PSU with the bead near the PSU probably needed it to pass its CE test.

(And no, shielding does not always help for this, if HF leaks on the shield (which it sometimes does) the shield becomes just as good as an antenna. My Microsoft mouse has a shielded cable AND a bead.)

Sorry for the long reply, you found my sweet-spot.
/Johannes (Excito co-founder a long time ago, but now I'm just Johannes)
Cheeseboy
Posts: 789
Joined: 08 Apr 2007, 12:16

Re: B2 Power Supply

Post by Cheeseboy »

Thank you very much Johannes!

I will now go and look for PSU's without them in my home.
I'm a bit suspicious though:
I use a tellstick and many devices sending and receiving puny electromagnetical signals from it.
Moving a PSU a few centimetres on my floor will effect the effectiveness of the device, it's reception and reach when sending signals.
EMI seems to have a very big impact.

So, if shielding/grounding is of no use, perhaps I should go and buy my self a few of those ferrite tubes myself, and make my own ferrite beads around all my low-voltage cables? I must have misunderstood this completely, I thought it was only high energy cables (be it low Voltage/high Amps, or the other way around) that could cause these disturbances, but perhaps I'm wrong? Or is it the frequency?

Perhaps my 3 meter long (very expensive and heavily shielded) USB cable to my tellstick needs extra protection from the 12 V, 25 W desktop lamp that it runs next to?

Never mind, I obviously quit school too soon...
Thanks for your answer.

Cheers,

/CheeseBoy
Last edited by Cheeseboy on 02 Oct 2013, 04:46, edited 1 time in total.
DanielM
Posts: 637
Joined: 28 Mar 2008, 06:37
Location: Sweden

Re: B2 Power Supply

Post by DanielM »

Hmmm... I'm thinking loud here now... As you know I've had quite much problems with my B3 wifi. Normally I have a Tellstick Duo (for lamp control), a APC 350CS (ups) and a Yoctolight (ambient light sensor) connected to my B3 USB ports (using a non powered usb hub). However I've noticed that having all those connected is affecting my wifi, it works much better lately, after I tried disconnecting both the light sensor and the ups. I was thinking this could be because of power problems (although I have a hard time believing any of these devices would use anything near 5W). But maybe the problem is electromagnetic disturbance from poorly grounded devices?

Would I need to buy ferrite tubes (and where do I do that in Sweden?) or could I simply pull them off some old crap electronics that I'll probably find in my shed?

/Daniel
johannes
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Re: B2 Power Supply

Post by johannes »

Cheeseboy wrote: So, if shielding/grounding is of no use
That's (as always) a simplification, sorry about this. Shielding is of course useful in some cases, for instance if there is "differential mode" emissions into a cable, for instance a serial cable where the data traffic itself creates AC currents in the cable, a shield effectively keeps any magnetic fields from this leaking out of the cable. Another reason is where the entire electronics (or large enough parts of it) is enclosed in the shielding, actually the B3 is a good example. Since it's inside a metal case, if all cables who exit the casing are shielded, and those shields are firmly connected to the casing at exit points, there is no way in hell any radiation would leak onto the shield. Furhtermore everything leaking onto the inside of those cables (common mode or differential mode) would be contained.

However most products have plastic cases, and then there is no good place to connect the shield, at least it can be difficult to ensure that radiation (say from DDR3 data bus on the board) would contaminate the shield (effectively use the shield as an antenna).
Cheeseboy wrote: , perhaps I should go and by my self a few of those ferrite tubes myself, and make my own ferrite beads around all my low-voltage cables? I must have misunderstood this completely, I thought it was only high energy cables (be it low Voltage/high Amps, or the other way around) that could cause these disturbances, but perhaps I'm wrong? Or is it the frequency?
Yes this can help if you are lucky. And no, not only high energy cables emit HF power, electric field energy is proportional to current but also to frequency. Could be that you have a power supply emitting overtones in the range your tellstik operates (433 MHz), but can also be other reasons (such as much lower frequencies interfering with power supply for the tellstick radio IC etc etc). It can also be just too much metal near the tellstick antenna, degrading antenna performance. Try disconnecting or removing the other stuff one by one and see if you can see a clear difference. I have seen something similar too, burying the B3 and the tellstick in mains cabling makes it almost unusable.
/Johannes (Excito co-founder a long time ago, but now I'm just Johannes)
johannes
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Joined: 31 Dec 2006, 07:12
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Re: B2 Power Supply

Post by johannes »

DanielM wrote:But maybe the problem is electromagnetic disturbance from poorly grounded devices?
I wouldn't know but you can always try! Could also be degraded antenna performance due to too much stuff close to the antennas?
DanielM wrote: Would I need to buy ferrite tubes (and where do I do that in Sweden?) or could I simply pull them off some old crap electronics that I'll probably find in my shed?
You can buy those at elfa.se if I remember correctly but are quite expensive there. You can easilly pull them off old PSU's you don't need anymore, and sometimes they are in two halves so you don't even need to destroy the PSU. Just cut away the plastic mold.
/Johannes (Excito co-founder a long time ago, but now I'm just Johannes)
Cheeseboy
Posts: 789
Joined: 08 Apr 2007, 12:16

Re: B2 Power Supply

Post by Cheeseboy »

Thank you Johannes for your time to answer all those questions.

Come to think about it, it is pretty obvious really...
I have a heavily shielded expensive USB cable to connect my TellStick Duo to my B3.
It is long - so the device can be as far away from the rest of the EMI madness around the B3 (it hangs from the ceiling actually).
But I just realized:
Between the expensive cable and the TellStick is it's standard short (probably unshielded) cable, with a ferrite bead on it.

The cover of the TellStick device is plastic, it is suspiciously light - the PCB does not even seem to be properly fixed to the casing (I can hear it rattle around in there).

It is not the arrangement of all the possibly HF-emitting devices/cables around the TellStick device (and thus the B3) that makes a difference, but actually all the same crap that surrounds the receiver units.
It is when I put my laptop bag on the wrong side of the sofa in the living room that things stop receiving signals from the TellStick.
Or when I've hoovered my floor and accidentally nudged some extension cables a few centimetres. Or plugged in my electrical shaver for recharging.

The Tellstick unit has never had a problem receiving signals from devices that are in places like:
- Outside my concrete wall
- At the very back of my freezer, right where the compressor motor is
- In the fridge, behind a ton of solid stuff like beer cans

Also, I think I might have got a bad apple (måndagsexemplar).
The standard tiny remote control that comes from Nexa with some of their "package"-deals has no problems whatsoever. It is driven by a single 1.5 V cell battery, but the TellStick can't reach the relay/whatever from half the distance...

The reason I suspected all the mess around the B3 is that there happen to be so many receivers nearby...
They tend to fail the most, even though they are closest to the transmitter... And probably because that is the area that tends to be re-arranged most often.

Cheers,

/Cheeseboy
redw0001
Posts: 96
Joined: 07 Sep 2009, 14:03

Re: B2 Power Supply

Post by redw0001 »

Thanks to all for the help. I ended up getting a 12V5A powersupply off ebay, and they included a fourway splitter cable.

B2 now up and running after nine months. Upgraded from 2.0.5 through 2.4.1 to latest level, preserving data. Interesting exercise and now running rsync between storage on the B3 and B2.

My plan - is to set up the B2 effectively as a backup environment running rsync weekly, which means I have a backup if I have local failure. Admittedly the RPO will be a week (might do it overnight daily in the end). Using rsync manually or possibly as a cron job seems easiest, that is, unless anyone has a better idea? :D
Ubi
Posts: 1549
Joined: 17 Jul 2007, 09:01

Re: B2 Power Supply

Post by Ubi »

No, rsync snapshots over cron rules them all
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